I agree with everything you said in that interview; much of it I've been saying myself, but I'll further explain my own views:
America as the concept enshrined in our foundational documents is the finest fruit of the Western Enlightenment. We are a unique culture based not on ethnicity but on nationality and citizenship and held together by the secular civil society crafted by those foundational documents. Anyone from anywhere can become a full American. But they can only live and feel as Americans if they emerge newly born from the melting pot and decline to remain a jagged shard of multiculturalism.
The issue I have with sectionalism (regionalism) is millennials like myself and zoomers are largely rootless cosmopolitans. Jobs are located in large metropolitan areas, and we will live in 4+ states throughout our lives by necessity, with friends and family scattered all throughout the US. This was not the case in the 20th century.
Regionalism does not work with the economics of the 21st century. America is a monoculture. A larger cultural identity must be chosen, be it identiarianism or civic nationalism.
I haven’t listened to the IM 1776 thing, did listen to his interview with Aaron M or what not. Similar sentiment in that we need new solutions not resorting to old ones...I gave money to Vivek but I didn’t like his pro life, there is a God, pro nuclear family stuff. If the church and family worked it would still be in place. It seemed like Vivek took more of a Libertarian stance regardless of his personal views though. Not necessarily against regionalism but think new things like block chain voting are the way forward. But do see how starting local and moving together could be the only way. Looking forward to checking out that link you left (:
That's a very thought provoking discussion you had with Lee. I really appreciate you posting this on here and giving us the chance to read it. I do feel like you guys are too optimistic but that is a good thing.
I just want to say that as a normal American im bombarded with anti American views from the media every day. The sad part is most of it comes from Americans, but it seems to me that its really mostly being influenced by RICH people. They seem to be the most anti American Americans iv seen. Am Washington of course but again theyre mostly Rich as well.
It seems to me that with more money and political power people get their hands on the more anti American bs they tend to spew out and try to convince others to tear down our boarders, culture, language and morals in general. If America is too survive, in my view, as of now the extremly weathly and their political agents power needs to be addressed and turned down a notch.
Im first generation American and i want to see our country prosper anf not be hated on by its own so much... sorry for the rant!
I'm struck by the passage on "Americans, but not really Minnesotans." As you note, an organic way that people have always become part of a culture is because they are part of a *local* culture, and develop close ties to unrelated individuals who they see. Loving Coca-Cola and Rock and Roll is not deep enough to be lasting, but loving the Baldwin City Bulldogs (go dogs!!) is. This is why I think that the rise of very-online elite culture has contributed to the fracturing of US culture, and the whole work-from-home, Instacart, GrubHub world that grew out of COVID has caused it to shatter. If you don't even see the cashier at the grocery store, how can you make connections to people in a community? And if you have no connection to those people, how can you share a culture with them?
I've joked with my dad about how I think the only people that should have political rights in America are those that attend college football games. If you want to see America, go to a big cfb game. Everyone stops walking in the concourse to participate in the prayer and national anthem and chants USA when the jets fly above.
We are an Anglo-centric nation. English language, English law and English customs. A "Melting Pot" sounds poetic but we, as a nation, have always expected new arrivals to assimilate into our American civilization. Multiculturalism and the endless babble about "diversity making us stronger" will be the death of America.
As a person on the right, this essay moves me yet further into the “nothing left to salvage” camp. No one will ever be able to agree to what the “core ideals” of the civic nationalist movement actually are—indeed, the civic nationalist, in my experience, never defines that list with any sort of actionable specificity, just empty platitudes—and it seems obvious that the price of assimilating the current mix of racial/ethnic groups already here would be abandoning basically everything I, at least, think of as “American”: for example, the First Amendment will need to go, replaced by the elaborate set of speech codes necessary to maintain ethnic harmony and typical of much of the world already; the Second Amendment will need to go because only overwhelming force can maintain order in such a society and well-armed ethnic groups would be too potentially destabilizing to tolerate; equality of opportunity will have to go, replaced by the kind of ethnic spoils system Mr. Cooper has written about at such length elsewhere (but everywhere, instead of just in the urban cores). And it would require a level of economic redistribution that would be utterly intolerable to most legacy Americans. What would be left and how could it possibly work?
One general observation about the issue: America STOPPED hitting replacement rates in 1972. If we aren't willing to "f*ck to save the species" I can't fault letting in a *reasonable* amount of people who will -- so, over time, it seems inevitable that the country will shift what it is in some fundamental way.
I loved the discussion and will be thinking about it. American identity changed so much as it moved West, through technological innovation, the end of slavery, and through waves of immigration. Identity seems to be a continual work in progress and a blend of myth with the hyperlocal patterns of life. Vivek was a good starting point for this discussion, because watching him over the last months, I've formed an impression that he is as American as American gets. Whatever that means. Most likely he breathes the myth.
One question for anyone that knows - what does IM in "IM 1776" stand for? I went through their mission statement, and related material and couldn't figure it out.
I am fascinated with this subject only because America WAS a country where one could go IF you had problems. BUT in the case of the Irish coming to the Americas (as many other nations) they were derided/called names and worked for lower wages. In other words they were welcomed but were treated like slaves.Polish. Swedish etc.
My husband was asked to come to the US (British engineer in the aircraft business)we were hounded by immigration/asked to show letters of employment and refused a Green card.
We went South to LA. where he was offered a better job......no-one told us we were supposed to let immigration know.
We were living/paying taxes/my daughter was in school and suddenly we were told to get out of the US within 10 days. We did this, on re-entry we were told to go to immigration in downtown LA to secure visas. We did this.
Next comes a letter from immigration. "You have outstayed your welcome." Please leave the US in 10 days. We fought immigration with my husbands company (which was American) and finally got our Green Cards.
By this time we did not want to stay so we left.
We now live in France (known for their never ending beaurocracy) but we found it much easier than the US
Now hundreds of American people are coming to Europe and complaining about the French beauraucrocy.
The American immigration system is DESIGNED to keep immigrants away. I work with lots of immigrants and it's a NIGHTMARE trying to do it legally. I also met a girl from Argentina who was given entrance to the US (I can't remember why), but she was forbidden to work. Obviously she had to go under the table, and get future husband supported her. When I asked why she didn't come back to Argentina and wait for approval there, she said she had already waited MONTHS for approval to work (so she could stay in the US on her own salary), and if you leave, your application had to start all over again. Her Dad was dying of cancer, and he said he would refuse to see her if she went back to Argentina (because he didn't want her to lose her spot and opportunity to stay in the US). Her conclusion is that the US immigration system is DESIGNED to keep out immigrants, and I have many personal stories that support this
Nothing I would love to see more than the presence of the deep state eradicated from everything (and I'm forced to pay for them with my own labor, through taxes. It's criminal!)
The IT department where I work is about 50% H1B visa holding Indian nationals. They are (generally) great people, pleasant, honorable, and smart as hell!
These are the type of people we need to attract, and trust me, birthright citizenship is the primary goal of H1B people. Again, I'm fine with that, bring as many industrious and smart people as we can!
What we do not need are illiterate adults with multiple illegitimate children and people predisposed to lethargy and/or criminal activity, otherwise known as those suffering from "unemployed" or "fatherless" behavior patterns. Our nation is as full of those as we can afford to be.
Unfortunately what you described in the last paragraph is exactly what the Collectivists truly desire, despite claiming they seek positive solutions. But they don't want the positive outcomes they claim that they want. I'm living in Argentina, and President Milei (an absolute HERO) is planning to privatize the airline industry. The Collectivists are always screaming that the "workers should own the means of production or the business." So Milei said he'd privatize the airline, and give the shares to the workers in the company... they just won't get more tax subsidies. He offered EXACTLY what the Collectivists always CLAIM that they want, but a union representative said that deal would only happen over his dead body (literally said that). Even I was shocked at how transparently disingenuous the Collectivists were in this regard (and the workers didn't fight back against the Union that wants to kill that deal. Hmmmm....)
Your last paragraph is exactly what they CLAIM to fight against, but they don't want to solve that problem. It's really sick stuff
When i was finishing up a grad degree a few years ago, a professor said “America has no culture”. I asked her to elaborate and she turned the question around on me. The first things that came to mind i replied with were “jazz, baseball, and bar b que.” After trying to deny (the class was recorded on zoom) she later apologized (over email). Ha! I’d say this culture is the fruit of an American ethnogenisis.
My entire family came to America in the 20th Century. Some were coal miners. Others worked for henry ford, still others remained in ireland until the 1980s. In spite of that, one of my earliest memories is my dad reading me a picture book on the Texas Revolution. When people ask him if he’s from Texas, he says “no, but I got here as quick as I could.” American culture in big blue cities may be endangered but it isn’t extinct. You wont find it at the comcast building in Philly, the inner harbor in bmore or lower manhattan, but you can still find authentic american cultural practices in Port Richmond, Dundalk, and North Jersey. I see many in my generation choosing to live intentional lives and hopefully these cultural practices can be rekindled.
As far as i can tell, Europe is effectively finished as a major civilizational force. The Irish side of my family is more concerned with trump than their own demographic replacement and abandonment of faith. Italian towns are paying up to 50k for young families to move to certain towns -- that is an act of desperation. I remember taking the train from Frankfurt to Cologne in 2019 and listening to Brahms. It made me sad that such a culturally fecund people had been redefined by a couple decades of war. Now the vast majority of Germans hate their own culture and actively work to erase it. Something in the European spirit died in 1945. I wrote a piece on that a while back.
Our failed counter insurgency strategy in Afghanistan is a great example of how the state tries to break down the traditional foundations of a society to consolidate power. In parallel to the Army and Marine infantry companies scattered across the countryside, there was a horde of State Dept, NGOs, USAID, etc all pushing post-1968 western values onto a traditional society. People think that the military was fighting the Taliban for control of the government but that’s not exactly right. The fight was really over the culture. The US military was just the enforcement arm of western cultural change agents who were ultimately rejected.
I love the Peculiar Institution series so far, I wonder if there will be anything about the physicality of Blacks generally being better suited to physical labor compared to other races..
America fundamentally is about something that Europe is not and never was: freedom. Check out the song The Freedom Train, an Irving Berlin song recorded by Johnny Mercer, Benny Goodman, Peggy Lee, the Pied Pipers and Paul Weston's orchestra in 1947. The song was associated with an actual Freedom Train, a train which toured the country with artifacts and exhibits about American history and values such as the Declaration of Independence and the Emancipation Proclamation. There was controversy about it in the segregated South. But the point is that the sentiments expressed in the Freedom Train are uniquely American and once upon a time most Americans knew what they were and were proud of them.
I agree with everything you said in that interview; much of it I've been saying myself, but I'll further explain my own views:
America as the concept enshrined in our foundational documents is the finest fruit of the Western Enlightenment. We are a unique culture based not on ethnicity but on nationality and citizenship and held together by the secular civil society crafted by those foundational documents. Anyone from anywhere can become a full American. But they can only live and feel as Americans if they emerge newly born from the melting pot and decline to remain a jagged shard of multiculturalism.
Every single person in my family tree (modern research tools are amazing) that immigrated to the US arrived here between the1630s and 1840s.
As you always do Darryl, you've found the core of the given topic.
The issue I have with sectionalism (regionalism) is millennials like myself and zoomers are largely rootless cosmopolitans. Jobs are located in large metropolitan areas, and we will live in 4+ states throughout our lives by necessity, with friends and family scattered all throughout the US. This was not the case in the 20th century.
Regionalism does not work with the economics of the 21st century. America is a monoculture. A larger cultural identity must be chosen, be it identiarianism or civic nationalism.
Scott Greer has a pretty good critique here: https://www.highly-respected.com/p/the-question-of-americas-identity.
Can’t help but agree with him, and think that DC and LL are in denial :/
I haven’t listened to the IM 1776 thing, did listen to his interview with Aaron M or what not. Similar sentiment in that we need new solutions not resorting to old ones...I gave money to Vivek but I didn’t like his pro life, there is a God, pro nuclear family stuff. If the church and family worked it would still be in place. It seemed like Vivek took more of a Libertarian stance regardless of his personal views though. Not necessarily against regionalism but think new things like block chain voting are the way forward. But do see how starting local and moving together could be the only way. Looking forward to checking out that link you left (:
That's a very thought provoking discussion you had with Lee. I really appreciate you posting this on here and giving us the chance to read it. I do feel like you guys are too optimistic but that is a good thing.
I just want to say that as a normal American im bombarded with anti American views from the media every day. The sad part is most of it comes from Americans, but it seems to me that its really mostly being influenced by RICH people. They seem to be the most anti American Americans iv seen. Am Washington of course but again theyre mostly Rich as well.
It seems to me that with more money and political power people get their hands on the more anti American bs they tend to spew out and try to convince others to tear down our boarders, culture, language and morals in general. If America is too survive, in my view, as of now the extremly weathly and their political agents power needs to be addressed and turned down a notch.
Im first generation American and i want to see our country prosper anf not be hated on by its own so much... sorry for the rant!
I'm struck by the passage on "Americans, but not really Minnesotans." As you note, an organic way that people have always become part of a culture is because they are part of a *local* culture, and develop close ties to unrelated individuals who they see. Loving Coca-Cola and Rock and Roll is not deep enough to be lasting, but loving the Baldwin City Bulldogs (go dogs!!) is. This is why I think that the rise of very-online elite culture has contributed to the fracturing of US culture, and the whole work-from-home, Instacart, GrubHub world that grew out of COVID has caused it to shatter. If you don't even see the cashier at the grocery store, how can you make connections to people in a community? And if you have no connection to those people, how can you share a culture with them?
I've joked with my dad about how I think the only people that should have political rights in America are those that attend college football games. If you want to see America, go to a big cfb game. Everyone stops walking in the concourse to participate in the prayer and national anthem and chants USA when the jets fly above.
Absolutely loved this. Tons to think about. Great job both !
We are an Anglo-centric nation. English language, English law and English customs. A "Melting Pot" sounds poetic but we, as a nation, have always expected new arrivals to assimilate into our American civilization. Multiculturalism and the endless babble about "diversity making us stronger" will be the death of America.
It's the language that gets me. The citizenship test should be easy, but given exclusively in English.
As a person on the right, this essay moves me yet further into the “nothing left to salvage” camp. No one will ever be able to agree to what the “core ideals” of the civic nationalist movement actually are—indeed, the civic nationalist, in my experience, never defines that list with any sort of actionable specificity, just empty platitudes—and it seems obvious that the price of assimilating the current mix of racial/ethnic groups already here would be abandoning basically everything I, at least, think of as “American”: for example, the First Amendment will need to go, replaced by the elaborate set of speech codes necessary to maintain ethnic harmony and typical of much of the world already; the Second Amendment will need to go because only overwhelming force can maintain order in such a society and well-armed ethnic groups would be too potentially destabilizing to tolerate; equality of opportunity will have to go, replaced by the kind of ethnic spoils system Mr. Cooper has written about at such length elsewhere (but everywhere, instead of just in the urban cores). And it would require a level of economic redistribution that would be utterly intolerable to most legacy Americans. What would be left and how could it possibly work?
One general observation about the issue: America STOPPED hitting replacement rates in 1972. If we aren't willing to "f*ck to save the species" I can't fault letting in a *reasonable* amount of people who will -- so, over time, it seems inevitable that the country will shift what it is in some fundamental way.
I loved the discussion and will be thinking about it. American identity changed so much as it moved West, through technological innovation, the end of slavery, and through waves of immigration. Identity seems to be a continual work in progress and a blend of myth with the hyperlocal patterns of life. Vivek was a good starting point for this discussion, because watching him over the last months, I've formed an impression that he is as American as American gets. Whatever that means. Most likely he breathes the myth.
One question for anyone that knows - what does IM in "IM 1776" stand for? I went through their mission statement, and related material and couldn't figure it out.
I am fascinated with this subject only because America WAS a country where one could go IF you had problems. BUT in the case of the Irish coming to the Americas (as many other nations) they were derided/called names and worked for lower wages. In other words they were welcomed but were treated like slaves.Polish. Swedish etc.
My husband was asked to come to the US (British engineer in the aircraft business)we were hounded by immigration/asked to show letters of employment and refused a Green card.
We went South to LA. where he was offered a better job......no-one told us we were supposed to let immigration know.
We were living/paying taxes/my daughter was in school and suddenly we were told to get out of the US within 10 days. We did this, on re-entry we were told to go to immigration in downtown LA to secure visas. We did this.
Next comes a letter from immigration. "You have outstayed your welcome." Please leave the US in 10 days. We fought immigration with my husbands company (which was American) and finally got our Green Cards.
By this time we did not want to stay so we left.
We now live in France (known for their never ending beaurocracy) but we found it much easier than the US
Now hundreds of American people are coming to Europe and complaining about the French beauraucrocy.
The American immigration system is DESIGNED to keep immigrants away. I work with lots of immigrants and it's a NIGHTMARE trying to do it legally. I also met a girl from Argentina who was given entrance to the US (I can't remember why), but she was forbidden to work. Obviously she had to go under the table, and get future husband supported her. When I asked why she didn't come back to Argentina and wait for approval there, she said she had already waited MONTHS for approval to work (so she could stay in the US on her own salary), and if you leave, your application had to start all over again. Her Dad was dying of cancer, and he said he would refuse to see her if she went back to Argentina (because he didn't want her to lose her spot and opportunity to stay in the US). Her conclusion is that the US immigration system is DESIGNED to keep out immigrants, and I have many personal stories that support this
Similar performance should be expected from any process/service you hand over to the deep state.
Looks what they've done with education and airports in the last 30 years!
Nothing I would love to see more than the presence of the deep state eradicated from everything (and I'm forced to pay for them with my own labor, through taxes. It's criminal!)
The IT department where I work is about 50% H1B visa holding Indian nationals. They are (generally) great people, pleasant, honorable, and smart as hell!
These are the type of people we need to attract, and trust me, birthright citizenship is the primary goal of H1B people. Again, I'm fine with that, bring as many industrious and smart people as we can!
What we do not need are illiterate adults with multiple illegitimate children and people predisposed to lethargy and/or criminal activity, otherwise known as those suffering from "unemployed" or "fatherless" behavior patterns. Our nation is as full of those as we can afford to be.
Unfortunately what you described in the last paragraph is exactly what the Collectivists truly desire, despite claiming they seek positive solutions. But they don't want the positive outcomes they claim that they want. I'm living in Argentina, and President Milei (an absolute HERO) is planning to privatize the airline industry. The Collectivists are always screaming that the "workers should own the means of production or the business." So Milei said he'd privatize the airline, and give the shares to the workers in the company... they just won't get more tax subsidies. He offered EXACTLY what the Collectivists always CLAIM that they want, but a union representative said that deal would only happen over his dead body (literally said that). Even I was shocked at how transparently disingenuous the Collectivists were in this regard (and the workers didn't fight back against the Union that wants to kill that deal. Hmmmm....)
Your last paragraph is exactly what they CLAIM to fight against, but they don't want to solve that problem. It's really sick stuff
They could have come across the southern border illegally and been given benefits that exceed $2K USD / month!
Familiar story to me. French, not British in this case but we fought Homeland Sec with the most American of weapons: money & lawyers and won.
When i was finishing up a grad degree a few years ago, a professor said “America has no culture”. I asked her to elaborate and she turned the question around on me. The first things that came to mind i replied with were “jazz, baseball, and bar b que.” After trying to deny (the class was recorded on zoom) she later apologized (over email). Ha! I’d say this culture is the fruit of an American ethnogenisis.
My entire family came to America in the 20th Century. Some were coal miners. Others worked for henry ford, still others remained in ireland until the 1980s. In spite of that, one of my earliest memories is my dad reading me a picture book on the Texas Revolution. When people ask him if he’s from Texas, he says “no, but I got here as quick as I could.” American culture in big blue cities may be endangered but it isn’t extinct. You wont find it at the comcast building in Philly, the inner harbor in bmore or lower manhattan, but you can still find authentic american cultural practices in Port Richmond, Dundalk, and North Jersey. I see many in my generation choosing to live intentional lives and hopefully these cultural practices can be rekindled.
As far as i can tell, Europe is effectively finished as a major civilizational force. The Irish side of my family is more concerned with trump than their own demographic replacement and abandonment of faith. Italian towns are paying up to 50k for young families to move to certain towns -- that is an act of desperation. I remember taking the train from Frankfurt to Cologne in 2019 and listening to Brahms. It made me sad that such a culturally fecund people had been redefined by a couple decades of war. Now the vast majority of Germans hate their own culture and actively work to erase it. Something in the European spirit died in 1945. I wrote a piece on that a while back.
https://open.substack.com/pub/doveserpent/p/progress-war-and-the-blues?r=1f60j8&utm_medium=ios&utm_campaign=post
Will you do an audio version of this too, or no?
Our failed counter insurgency strategy in Afghanistan is a great example of how the state tries to break down the traditional foundations of a society to consolidate power. In parallel to the Army and Marine infantry companies scattered across the countryside, there was a horde of State Dept, NGOs, USAID, etc all pushing post-1968 western values onto a traditional society. People think that the military was fighting the Taliban for control of the government but that’s not exactly right. The fight was really over the culture. The US military was just the enforcement arm of western cultural change agents who were ultimately rejected.
I love the Peculiar Institution series so far, I wonder if there will be anything about the physicality of Blacks generally being better suited to physical labor compared to other races..
America fundamentally is about something that Europe is not and never was: freedom. Check out the song The Freedom Train, an Irving Berlin song recorded by Johnny Mercer, Benny Goodman, Peggy Lee, the Pied Pipers and Paul Weston's orchestra in 1947. The song was associated with an actual Freedom Train, a train which toured the country with artifacts and exhibits about American history and values such as the Declaration of Independence and the Emancipation Proclamation. There was controversy about it in the segregated South. But the point is that the sentiments expressed in the Freedom Train are uniquely American and once upon a time most Americans knew what they were and were proud of them.
"You can hate the laws that you're obeying
You can shout your anger to the crowd
We may disagree with what you're saying
But we'll fight to let you say it loud"